Vouchers as a way to empower a child - Revision history

ESS: /* Government needed to prime immature market */

2024-02-19T23:18:17Z

Government needed to prime immature market

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	'''Comment:''' If you say that in immature "market", the government should help build schools, you might be right. However, vouchers can be used to secure investment based on contract that may then be financed by banks. This will work nicely assuming the country itself got those institutions and legal solutions in place.		'''Comment:''' If you say that in immature "market", the government should help build schools, you might be right. However, vouchers can be used to secure investment based on contract that may then be financed by banks. This will work nicely assuming the country itself got those institutions and legal solutions in place.

			In a mature "market", like Poland, options are too rich to list.

	== Abandonment of public schools ==		== Abandonment of public schools ==

ESS: /* Discussion transcript */

2024-02-19T22:29:19Z

Discussion transcript

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:29, 19 February 2024
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	During a Discord debate on the end of school coercion (Feb 17, 2024), the following metaphor of schools as museums emerged as an argument against school vouchers proposed as part of [[Lex Libertas]] in Poland:		During a Discord debate on the end of school coercion (Feb 17, 2024), the following metaphor of schools as museums emerged as an argument against school vouchers proposed as part of [[Lex Libertas]] in Poland:

	[https://supermemo.guru/wiki/School_vouchers_and_the_museum_model Museum model] (this text in Polish: [[Muzeum a bon]]		[https://supermemo.guru/wiki/School_vouchers_and_the_museum_model Museum model] (this text in Polish: [[Muzeum a bon]])

	== Two aspects of the museum metaphor ==		== Two aspects of the museum metaphor ==

ESS at 22:15, 19 February 2024

2024-02-19T22:15:47Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:15, 19 February 2024
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	During a Discord debate on the end of school coercion (Feb 17, 2024), the following metaphor of schools as museums emerged as an argument against school vouchers proposed as part of [[Lex Libertas]] in Poland:		During a Discord debate on the end of school coercion (Feb 17, 2024), the following metaphor of schools as museums emerged as an argument against school vouchers proposed as part of [[Lex Libertas]] in Poland:

	[https://supermemo.guru/wiki/School_vouchers_and_the_museum_model Museum model]		[https://supermemo.guru/wiki/School_vouchers_and_the_museum_model Museum model] (this text in Polish: [[Muzeum a bon]]

	== Two aspects of the museum metaphor ==		== Two aspects of the museum metaphor ==

ESS at 21:56, 19 February 2024

2024-02-19T21:56:31Z

ESS at 21:43, 19 February 2024

2024-02-19T21:43:58Z

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	# How people make use of the opportunities		# How people make use of the opportunities

	=== Note on the two aspects in the case of Poland ==		=== Note on the two aspects in the case of Poland ===

	In Poland, where the voucher scheme was proposed:		In Poland, where the voucher scheme was proposed:

ESS at 21:43, 19 February 2024

2024-02-19T21:43:14Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:43, 19 February 2024
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	== Discussion transcript ==		== Discussion transcript ==

			During a Discord debate on the end of school coercion (Feb 17, 2024), the following metaphor of schools as museums emerged as an argument against school vouchers proposed as part of [[Lex Libertas]] in Poland:

			[https://supermemo.guru/wiki/School_vouchers_and_the_museum_model Museum model]

			== Two aspects of the museum metaphor ==

			There are (at least) 2 distinct (but inter-related) aspects here:
			# How opportunities arise
			# How people make use of the opportunities

			=== Note on the two aspects in the case of Poland ==

	In Poland, where the voucher scheme was proposed:		In Poland, where the voucher scheme was proposed:
	# Opportunities arise fantastically, in Poland, these days. The number of initiatives is staggering. Awareness is great but ... funding is discriminatory		# Opportunities arise fantastically, in Poland, these days. The number of initiatives is staggering. Awareness is great but ... funding is discriminatory.
	# The use of opportunities is usually parent driven and is inhibited by pricing		# The use of opportunities is usually parent driven and is inhibited by pricing

	== Government needed to prime immature market? ==		== Government needed to prime immature market ==

	'''Reservation''': If a voucher holder does not find a suitable and accessible institutional educational option ("school") they will not, by themselves, be able to cause they vision to come to life.		'''Reservation''': If a voucher holder does not find a suitable and accessible institutional educational option ("school") they will not, by themselves, be able to cause they vision to come to life.

ESS: /* Discussion transcript */

2024-02-19T21:39:57Z

Discussion transcript

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:39, 19 February 2024
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	In Poland, where the voucher scheme was proposed:		In Poland, where the voucher scheme was proposed:
	# Opportunities arise fantastically, in Poland, these days. The number of initiatives is staggering. Awareness is great but ... funding is discriminatory		# Opportunities arise fantastically, in Poland, these days. The number of initiatives is staggering. Awareness is great but ... funding is discriminatory
	# The use of opportunities is usually parent driven ~~but~~ is inhibited by pricing		# The use of opportunities is usually parent driven and is inhibited by pricing

	== Government needed to prime immature market? ==		== Government needed to prime immature market? ==

ESS at 21:38, 19 February 2024

2024-02-19T21:38:48Z

ESS at 21:32, 19 February 2024

2024-02-19T21:32:16Z

ESS: Created page with "Discussion transcript: In Poland, where the voucher scheme was proposed: # Opportunities arise fantastically, in Poland, these days. The number of initiatives is staggering. Awareness is great but ... funding is discriminatory # The use of opportunities is usually parent driven but is inhibited by pricing >>>If a voucher holder does not find a suitable and accessible institutional educational option ("school") they will not, by themselves, be able to cause they vision..."

2024-02-19T21:30:45Z

Created page with "Discussion transcript: In Poland, where the voucher scheme was proposed: # Opportunities arise fantastically, in Poland, these days. The number of initiatives is staggering. Awareness is great but ... funding is discriminatory # The use of opportunities is usually parent driven but is inhibited by pricing >>>If a voucher holder does not find a suitable and accessible institutional educational option ("school") they will not, by themselves, be able to cause they vision..."

New page

Discussion transcript:

In Poland, where the voucher scheme was proposed:
# Opportunities arise fantastically, in Poland, these days. The number of initiatives is staggering. Awareness is great but ... funding is discriminatory
# The use of opportunities is usually parent driven but is inhibited by pricing

>>>If a voucher holder does not find a suitable and accessible institutional educational option ("school") they will not, by themselves, be able to cause they vision to come to life.

if you say that in immature "market", the government should help build schools, you might be right. However, vouchers can be used to secure investment based on contract that may then be financed by banks. This will work nicely assuming the country itself got those institutions and legal solutions in place.

>>>The institutions will come about by some decision-making process - and rather than the state unilaterally deciding these, it should be based on consultation with the citizens (including children, but not only children - after all, museums are used by adults too)

state investment should be based on democratic decisions, yes. In Poland, I believe we will rather have an excess of schools abandoned by children! In other words, the opposite will be a problem. Local authority will need to sell schools into private hands or convert them into cultural centers.

>>>the museum example was mostly speaking to the 2nd - if all available choices are free of charge (or maybe have just a nominal fee) children (indeed all people) can make use of them as much as they want, in any combination they want, based only on their needs without being limited by the value of their voucher.

the museum metaphor is lacking a bit here, because sharing schools (as opposed to parks and democratic oases of education) is a bit hard. On a perfectly competitive market, the cost of a free museum will have to be taken away from the opportunities to finance other museums, those which children might prefer. With the arrival of on-line opportunities though, all forms of sharing will become easy. I mentioned School in the Cloud in Poland with 25,000 students. Incidentally, it provides best freedoms for kids, most respect for their needs, and yet it is crippled by funding cuts at the hand of the government. This made vouchers idea so popular. Getting rid of the yoke of uneducated officials.

>>>They would also not feel pressured to use their vouchers for formal options that result in qualifications over the informal ones that are enriching but do not result in a certificate.

I do not fully understand. Vouchers could be used for any educational purposes, incl. buying books or a computer.

>>>Museums would still need to show engagement but instead of being forced into a narrow metric of voucher revenue (which will happen just as surely as teaching to the test happens in schools) they could look at more holistic measures.

please explain. I am pretty sure we can prove it theoretically that vouchers are the best way to empower a child. it can make its own decision with fewer financial constraints. As for teaching for the test, it will die a prompt death (unless parents interfere in learning).

>>>"the principles of perfect competition (museums do not meet that perfection, but educational options do)." educational options (at least the formal ones) most certainly do not; their value is not definable at the time of consumption; this is why the cost of fee-based education has been rising so rapidly.

our proposition Lex Libertas does not include tools to define "formal" education. Specific certificates might arise if there was a demand. It is important that you stress "value at the time of consumption". As a democratic and self-directed advocate, you probably agreed when I say that the brain is optimized to make perfect choices for the moment, that's why they should be respected.

The pleasure of learning defines optimum learning at the moment! Just in case, I add my text that contains all necessary evidence:

https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Pleasure_of_learning

>>>"The school will not have that option because the poor quality of service will immediately result in children quitting the school." no, there are many reasons why children may continue; for example, because they have bonded (at least in a surviving shared oppression way) with others and don't want to lose their friends.

yes. they can also be pushed by parents or may be bound by contract (as in the example of school that is built on demand). However, in evolution, an inferior species dies out. Poor educational choices will hurt schools and will make them bleed students. The worst the school, the faster the departure of kids, even with little time for bonding.

<<<besides this there are other arguments against vouchers (such as how their implementation in the states is leading to defunding public education, and increasing fees of for-profit schools)

you derive those observations from implementations where parents make decisions. not children. Public or private education does not differ on a "free educational market" because kids do not care about the ownership of a building or a school. Profiteering works in conditions of limited information (parents looking at school rankings) on a imperfectly competitive market (big schools against big schools). Those problem disappear when kids make decisions (they know instantly if they like the school or not) and when the number of competitive options is as rich as in Poland (School in the Cloud is free).

>>>I do not wish to get into an extended debate on them at this time.

I agree. Let me then summarize then:

# we do not need to debate it as it is the case of the law proposed for Poland, while our cause is the end to coercion
# I will review my text with a view to your remarks and see if I can improve it
# I leave you with a hopefully convincing question:

Imagine a child has a dream: How do you help him realize that dream if the money destined to help is in the hands of government officials? We want kids to have their own "pupil accounts" and feel "adult" and empowered :) ... I know it moves your heart a bit:)

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:56, 19 February 2024
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	'''Reservation''': If a voucher holder does not find a suitable and accessible institutional educational option ("school") they will not, by themselves, be able to cause they vision to come to life.		'''Reservation''': If a voucher holder does not find a suitable and accessible institutional educational option ("school") they will not, by themselves, be able to cause they vision to come to life.

	if you say that in immature "market", the government should help build schools, you might be right. However, vouchers can be used to secure investment based on contract that may then be financed by banks. This will work nicely assuming the country itself got those institutions and legal solutions in place.		'''Comment:''' If you say that in immature "market", the government should help build schools, you might be right. However, vouchers can be used to secure investment based on contract that may then be financed by banks. This will work nicely assuming the country itself got those institutions and legal solutions in place.

	== Abandonment of public schools ==		== Abandonment of public schools ==
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	'''Reservation''': The institutions will come about by some decision-making process - and rather than the state unilaterally deciding these, it should be based on consultation with the citizens (including children, but not only children - after all, museums are used by adults too)		'''Reservation''': The institutions will come about by some decision-making process - and rather than the state unilaterally deciding these, it should be based on consultation with the citizens (including children, but not only children - after all, museums are used by adults too)

	~~state~~ investment should be based on democratic decisions, yes. In Poland, I believe we will rather have an excess of schools abandoned by children! In other words, the opposite will be a problem. Local authority will need to sell schools into private hands or convert them into cultural centers.		'''Comment:''' State investment should be based on democratic decisions, yes. In Poland, I believe we will rather have an excess of schools abandoned by children! In other words, the opposite will be a problem. Local authority will need to sell schools into private hands or convert them into cultural centers.

	== Government that steals from children ==		== Government that steals from children ==
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	'''Reservation''': the museum example was mostly speaking to the 2nd - if all available choices are free of charge (or maybe have just a nominal fee) children (indeed all people) can make use of them as much as they want, in any combination they want, based only on their needs without being limited by the value of their voucher.		'''Reservation''': the museum example was mostly speaking to the 2nd - if all available choices are free of charge (or maybe have just a nominal fee) children (indeed all people) can make use of them as much as they want, in any combination they want, based only on their needs without being limited by the value of their voucher.

	the museum metaphor is lacking a bit here, because sharing schools (as opposed to parks and democratic oases of education) is a bit hard. On a perfectly competitive market, the cost of a free museum will have to be taken away from the opportunities to finance other museums, those which children might prefer. With the arrival of on-line opportunities though, all forms of sharing will become easy. I mentioned School in the Cloud in Poland with 25,000 students. Incidentally, it provides best freedoms for kids, most respect for their needs, and yet it is crippled by funding cuts at the hand of the government. This made vouchers idea so popular. Getting rid of the yoke of uneducated officials.		'''Comment:''' the museum metaphor is lacking a bit here, because sharing schools (as opposed to parks and democratic oases of education) is a bit hard. On a perfectly competitive market, the cost of a free museum will have to be taken away from the opportunities to finance other museums, those which children might prefer. With the arrival of on-line opportunities though, all forms of sharing will become easy. I mentioned School in the Cloud in Poland with 25,000 students. Incidentally, it provides best freedoms for kids, most respect for their needs, and yet it is crippled by funding cuts at the hand of the government. This made vouchers idea so popular. Getting rid of the yoke of uneducated officials.

	== Vouchers for small purchases ==		== Vouchers for small purchases ==
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	'''Reservation''': They would also not feel pressured to use their vouchers for formal options that result in qualifications over the informal ones that are enriching but do not result in a certificate.		'''Reservation''': They would also not feel pressured to use their vouchers for formal options that result in qualifications over the informal ones that are enriching but do not result in a certificate.

	I do not fully understand. Vouchers could be used for any educational purposes, incl. buying books or a computer.		'''Comment:''' I do not fully understand. Vouchers could be used for any educational purposes, incl. buying books or a computer.

	== Revenue amounts to child dreams ==		== Revenue amounts to child dreams ==
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	'''Reservation''': Museums would still need to show engagement but instead of being forced into a narrow metric of voucher revenue (which will happen just as surely as teaching to the test happens in schools) they could look at more holistic measures.		'''Reservation''': Museums would still need to show engagement but instead of being forced into a narrow metric of voucher revenue (which will happen just as surely as teaching to the test happens in schools) they could look at more holistic measures.

	please explain. I am pretty sure we can prove it theoretically that vouchers are the best way to empower a child. it can make its own decision with fewer financial constraints. As for teaching for the test, it will die a prompt death (unless parents interfere in learning).		'''Comment:''' please explain. I am pretty sure we can prove it theoretically that vouchers are the best way to empower a child. it can make its own decision with fewer financial constraints. As for teaching for the test, it will die a prompt death (unless parents interfere in learning).

	== Child's brain is the best decider ==		== Child's brain is the best decider ==
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	'''Reservation''': "the principles of perfect competition (museums do not meet that perfection, but educational options do)." educational options (at least the formal ones) most certainly do not; their value is not definable at the time of consumption; this is why the cost of fee-based education has been rising so rapidly.		'''Reservation''': "the principles of perfect competition (museums do not meet that perfection, but educational options do)." educational options (at least the formal ones) most certainly do not; their value is not definable at the time of consumption; this is why the cost of fee-based education has been rising so rapidly.

	our proposition Lex Libertas does not include tools to define "formal" education. Specific certificates might arise if there was a demand. It is important that you stress "value at the time of consumption". As a democratic and self-directed advocate, you probably agreed when I say that the brain is optimized to make perfect choices for the moment, that's why they should be respected.		'''Comment:''' our proposition Lex Libertas does not include tools to define "formal" education. Specific certificates might arise if there was a demand. It is important that you stress "value at the time of consumption". As a democratic and self-directed advocate, you probably agreed when I say that the brain is optimized to make perfect choices for the moment, that's why they should be respected.

	The pleasure of learning defines optimum learning at the moment! Just in case, I add my text that contains all necessary evidence:		The pleasure of learning defines optimum learning at the moment! Just in case, I add my text that contains all necessary evidence:
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	'''Reservation''': "The school will not have that option because the poor quality of service will immediately result in children quitting the school." no, there are many reasons why children may continue; for example, because they have bonded (at least in a surviving shared oppression way) with others and don't want to lose their friends.		'''Reservation''': "The school will not have that option because the poor quality of service will immediately result in children quitting the school." no, there are many reasons why children may continue; for example, because they have bonded (at least in a surviving shared oppression way) with others and don't want to lose their friends.

	yes. they can also be pushed by parents or may be bound by contract (as in the example of school that is built on demand). However, in evolution, an inferior species dies out. Poor educational choices will hurt schools and will make them bleed students. The worst the school, the faster the departure of kids, even with little time for bonding.		'''Comment:''' yes. they can also be pushed by parents or may be bound by contract (as in the example of school that is built on demand). However, in evolution, an inferior species dies out. Poor educational choices will hurt schools and will make them bleed students. The worst the school, the faster the departure of kids, even with little time for bonding.

	== Voucher implementation must be link to child freedoms ==		== Voucher implementation must be link to child freedoms ==
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	'''Reservation''': besides this there are other arguments against vouchers (such as how their implementation in the states is leading to defunding public education, and increasing fees of for-profit schools)		'''Reservation''': besides this there are other arguments against vouchers (such as how their implementation in the states is leading to defunding public education, and increasing fees of for-profit schools)

	you derive those observations from implementations where parents make decisions. not children. Public or private education does not differ on a "free educational market" because kids do not care about the ownership of a building or a school. Profiteering works in conditions of limited information (parents looking at school rankings) on an imperfectly competitive market (big schools against big schools). Those problem disappear when kids make decisions (they know instantly if they like the school or not) and when the number of competitive options is as rich as in Poland (School in the Cloud is free).		'''Comment:''' you derive those observations from implementations where parents make decisions. not children. Public or private education does not differ on a "free educational market" because kids do not care about the ownership of a building or a school. Profiteering works in conditions of limited information (parents looking at school rankings) on an imperfectly competitive market (big schools against big schools). Those problem disappear when kids make decisions (they know instantly if they like the school or not) and when the number of competitive options is as rich as in Poland (School in the Cloud is free).

	~~'''Remark''': I do not wish to get into an extended debate on them at this time.~~		== Summary ==

	~~I agree. Let me then summarize then:~~

	# we do not need to debate it as it is the case of the law proposed for Poland, while our cause is the [[end to coercion]]		# we do not need to debate it as it is the case of the law proposed for Poland, while our cause is the [[end to coercion]]
	~~# I will review the original text~~
	# I leave you with a hopefully convincing question:		# I leave you with a hopefully convincing question:

	Imagine a child has a dream: ''How do you help him realize that dream if the money destined to help is in the hands of government officials?'' We want kids to have their own "pupil accounts" and feel "adult" and empowered :) ... I know it moves your heart a bit:)		Imagine a child has a dream: ''How do you help him realize that dream if the money destined to help is in the hands of government officials?'' We want kids to have their own "pupil accounts" and feel "adult" and empowered :) ... I know it moves your heart a bit:)

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:38, 19 February 2024
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	Discussion transcript:		== Discussion transcript ==

	In Poland, where the voucher scheme was proposed:		In Poland, where the voucher scheme was proposed:
	# Opportunities arise fantastically, in Poland, these days. The number of initiatives is staggering. Awareness is great but ... funding is discriminatory		# Opportunities arise fantastically, in Poland, these days. The number of initiatives is staggering. Awareness is great but ... funding is discriminatory
	# The use of opportunities is usually parent driven but is inhibited by pricing		# The use of opportunities is usually parent driven but is inhibited by pricing

			== Government needed to prime immature market? ==

	'''Reservation''': If a voucher holder does not find a suitable and accessible institutional educational option ("school") they will not, by themselves, be able to cause they vision to come to life.		'''Reservation''': If a voucher holder does not find a suitable and accessible institutional educational option ("school") they will not, by themselves, be able to cause they vision to come to life.

	if you say that in immature "market", the government should help build schools, you might be right. However, vouchers can be used to secure investment based on contract that may then be financed by banks. This will work nicely assuming the country itself got those institutions and legal solutions in place.		if you say that in immature "market", the government should help build schools, you might be right. However, vouchers can be used to secure investment based on contract that may then be financed by banks. This will work nicely assuming the country itself got those institutions and legal solutions in place.

			== Abandonment of public schools ==

	'''Reservation''': The institutions will come about by some decision-making process - and rather than the state unilaterally deciding these, it should be based on consultation with the citizens (including children, but not only children - after all, museums are used by adults too)		'''Reservation''': The institutions will come about by some decision-making process - and rather than the state unilaterally deciding these, it should be based on consultation with the citizens (including children, but not only children - after all, museums are used by adults too)

	state investment should be based on democratic decisions, yes. In Poland, I believe we will rather have an excess of schools abandoned by children! In other words, the opposite will be a problem. Local authority will need to sell schools into private hands or convert them into cultural centers.		state investment should be based on democratic decisions, yes. In Poland, I believe we will rather have an excess of schools abandoned by children! In other words, the opposite will be a problem. Local authority will need to sell schools into private hands or convert them into cultural centers.

			== Government that steals from children ==

	'''Reservation''': the museum example was mostly speaking to the 2nd - if all available choices are free of charge (or maybe have just a nominal fee) children (indeed all people) can make use of them as much as they want, in any combination they want, based only on their needs without being limited by the value of their voucher.		'''Reservation''': the museum example was mostly speaking to the 2nd - if all available choices are free of charge (or maybe have just a nominal fee) children (indeed all people) can make use of them as much as they want, in any combination they want, based only on their needs without being limited by the value of their voucher.

	the museum metaphor is lacking a bit here, because sharing schools (as opposed to parks and democratic oases of education) is a bit hard. On a perfectly competitive market, the cost of a free museum will have to be taken away from the opportunities to finance other museums, those which children might prefer. With the arrival of on-line opportunities though, all forms of sharing will become easy. I mentioned School in the Cloud in Poland with 25,000 students. Incidentally, it provides best freedoms for kids, most respect for their needs, and yet it is crippled by funding cuts at the hand of the government. This made vouchers idea so popular. Getting rid of the yoke of uneducated officials.		the museum metaphor is lacking a bit here, because sharing schools (as opposed to parks and democratic oases of education) is a bit hard. On a perfectly competitive market, the cost of a free museum will have to be taken away from the opportunities to finance other museums, those which children might prefer. With the arrival of on-line opportunities though, all forms of sharing will become easy. I mentioned School in the Cloud in Poland with 25,000 students. Incidentally, it provides best freedoms for kids, most respect for their needs, and yet it is crippled by funding cuts at the hand of the government. This made vouchers idea so popular. Getting rid of the yoke of uneducated officials.

			== Vouchers for small purchases ==

	'''Reservation''': They would also not feel pressured to use their vouchers for formal options that result in qualifications over the informal ones that are enriching but do not result in a certificate.		'''Reservation''': They would also not feel pressured to use their vouchers for formal options that result in qualifications over the informal ones that are enriching but do not result in a certificate.

	I do not fully understand. Vouchers could be used for any educational purposes, incl. buying books or a computer.		I do not fully understand. Vouchers could be used for any educational purposes, incl. buying books or a computer.

			== Revenue amounts to child dreams ==

	'''Reservation''': Museums would still need to show engagement but instead of being forced into a narrow metric of voucher revenue (which will happen just as surely as teaching to the test happens in schools) they could look at more holistic measures.		'''Reservation''': Museums would still need to show engagement but instead of being forced into a narrow metric of voucher revenue (which will happen just as surely as teaching to the test happens in schools) they could look at more holistic measures.

	please explain. I am pretty sure we can prove it theoretically that vouchers are the best way to empower a child. it can make its own decision with fewer financial constraints. As for teaching for the test, it will die a prompt death (unless parents interfere in learning).		please explain. I am pretty sure we can prove it theoretically that vouchers are the best way to empower a child. it can make its own decision with fewer financial constraints. As for teaching for the test, it will die a prompt death (unless parents interfere in learning).

			== Child's brain is the best decider ==

	'''Reservation''': "the principles of perfect competition (museums do not meet that perfection, but educational options do)." educational options (at least the formal ones) most certainly do not; their value is not definable at the time of consumption; this is why the cost of fee-based education has been rising so rapidly.		'''Reservation''': "the principles of perfect competition (museums do not meet that perfection, but educational options do)." educational options (at least the formal ones) most certainly do not; their value is not definable at the time of consumption; this is why the cost of fee-based education has been rising so rapidly.
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	https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Pleasure_of_learning		https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Pleasure_of_learning

			== Flawed schools will not survive ==

	'''Reservation''': "The school will not have that option because the poor quality of service will immediately result in children quitting the school." no, there are many reasons why children may continue; for example, because they have bonded (at least in a surviving shared oppression way) with others and don't want to lose their friends.		'''Reservation''': "The school will not have that option because the poor quality of service will immediately result in children quitting the school." no, there are many reasons why children may continue; for example, because they have bonded (at least in a surviving shared oppression way) with others and don't want to lose their friends.
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	yes. they can also be pushed by parents or may be bound by contract (as in the example of school that is built on demand). However, in evolution, an inferior species dies out. Poor educational choices will hurt schools and will make them bleed students. The worst the school, the faster the departure of kids, even with little time for bonding.		yes. they can also be pushed by parents or may be bound by contract (as in the example of school that is built on demand). However, in evolution, an inferior species dies out. Poor educational choices will hurt schools and will make them bleed students. The worst the school, the faster the departure of kids, even with little time for bonding.

			== Voucher implementation must be link to child freedoms ==

	~~<<<~~besides this there are other arguments against vouchers (such as how their implementation in the states is leading to defunding public education, and increasing fees of for-profit schools)		'''Reservation''': besides this there are other arguments against vouchers (such as how their implementation in the states is leading to defunding public education, and increasing fees of for-profit schools)

	you derive those observations from implementations where parents make decisions. not children. Public or private education does not differ on a "free educational market" because kids do not care about the ownership of a building or a school. Profiteering works in conditions of limited information (parents looking at school rankings) on a imperfectly competitive market (big schools against big schools). Those problem disappear when kids make decisions (they know instantly if they like the school or not) and when the number of competitive options is as rich as in Poland (School in the Cloud is free).		you derive those observations from implementations where parents make decisions. not children. Public or private education does not differ on a "free educational market" because kids do not care about the ownership of a building or a school. Profiteering works in conditions of limited information (parents looking at school rankings) on an imperfectly competitive market (big schools against big schools). Those problem disappear when kids make decisions (they know instantly if they like the school or not) and when the number of competitive options is as rich as in Poland (School in the Cloud is free).

	'''~~Reservation~~''': I do not wish to get into an extended debate on them at this time.		'''Remark''': I do not wish to get into an extended debate on them at this time.

	I agree. Let me then summarize then:		I agree. Let me then summarize then:

	# we do not need to debate it as it is the case of the law proposed for Poland, while our cause is the end to coercion		# we do not need to debate it as it is the case of the law proposed for Poland, while our cause is the [[end to coercion]]
	# I will review my text ~~with a view to your remarks and see if I can improve it~~		# I will review the original text
	# I leave you with a hopefully convincing question:		# I leave you with a hopefully convincing question:

	Imagine a child has a dream: How do you help him realize that dream if the money destined to help is in the hands of government officials? We want kids to have their own "pupil accounts" and feel "adult" and empowered :) ... I know it moves your heart a bit:)		Imagine a child has a dream: ''How do you help him realize that dream if the money destined to help is in the hands of government officials?'' We want kids to have their own "pupil accounts" and feel "adult" and empowered :) ... I know it moves your heart a bit:)

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	# The use of opportunities is usually parent driven but is inhibited by pricing		# The use of opportunities is usually parent driven but is inhibited by pricing

	~~>>>~~If a voucher holder does not find a suitable and accessible institutional educational option ("school") they will not, by themselves, be able to cause they vision to come to life.		'''Reservation''': If a voucher holder does not find a suitable and accessible institutional educational option ("school") they will not, by themselves, be able to cause they vision to come to life.

	if you say that in immature "market", the government should help build schools, you might be right. However, vouchers can be used to secure investment based on contract that may then be financed by banks. This will work nicely assuming the country itself got those institutions and legal solutions in place.		if you say that in immature "market", the government should help build schools, you might be right. However, vouchers can be used to secure investment based on contract that may then be financed by banks. This will work nicely assuming the country itself got those institutions and legal solutions in place.

	~~>>>~~The institutions will come about by some decision-making process - and rather than the state unilaterally deciding these, it should be based on consultation with the citizens (including children, but not only children - after all, museums are used by adults too)		'''Reservation''': The institutions will come about by some decision-making process - and rather than the state unilaterally deciding these, it should be based on consultation with the citizens (including children, but not only children - after all, museums are used by adults too)

	state investment should be based on democratic decisions, yes. In Poland, I believe we will rather have an excess of schools abandoned by children! In other words, the opposite will be a problem. Local authority will need to sell schools into private hands or convert them into cultural centers.		state investment should be based on democratic decisions, yes. In Poland, I believe we will rather have an excess of schools abandoned by children! In other words, the opposite will be a problem. Local authority will need to sell schools into private hands or convert them into cultural centers.

	~~>>>~~the museum example was mostly speaking to the 2nd - if all available choices are free of charge (or maybe have just a nominal fee) children (indeed all people) can make use of them as much as they want, in any combination they want, based only on their needs without being limited by the value of their voucher.		'''Reservation''': the museum example was mostly speaking to the 2nd - if all available choices are free of charge (or maybe have just a nominal fee) children (indeed all people) can make use of them as much as they want, in any combination they want, based only on their needs without being limited by the value of their voucher.

	the museum metaphor is lacking a bit here, because sharing schools (as opposed to parks and democratic oases of education) is a bit hard. On a perfectly competitive market, the cost of a free museum will have to be taken away from the opportunities to finance other museums, those which children might prefer. With the arrival of on-line opportunities though, all forms of sharing will become easy. I mentioned School in the Cloud in Poland with 25,000 students. Incidentally, it provides best freedoms for kids, most respect for their needs, and yet it is crippled by funding cuts at the hand of the government. This made vouchers idea so popular. Getting rid of the yoke of uneducated officials.		the museum metaphor is lacking a bit here, because sharing schools (as opposed to parks and democratic oases of education) is a bit hard. On a perfectly competitive market, the cost of a free museum will have to be taken away from the opportunities to finance other museums, those which children might prefer. With the arrival of on-line opportunities though, all forms of sharing will become easy. I mentioned School in the Cloud in Poland with 25,000 students. Incidentally, it provides best freedoms for kids, most respect for their needs, and yet it is crippled by funding cuts at the hand of the government. This made vouchers idea so popular. Getting rid of the yoke of uneducated officials.

	~~>>>~~They would also not feel pressured to use their vouchers for formal options that result in qualifications over the informal ones that are enriching but do not result in a certificate.		'''Reservation''': They would also not feel pressured to use their vouchers for formal options that result in qualifications over the informal ones that are enriching but do not result in a certificate.

	I do not fully understand. Vouchers could be used for any educational purposes, incl. buying books or a computer.		I do not fully understand. Vouchers could be used for any educational purposes, incl. buying books or a computer.

	~~>>>~~Museums would still need to show engagement but instead of being forced into a narrow metric of voucher revenue (which will happen just as surely as teaching to the test happens in schools) they could look at more holistic measures.		'''Reservation''': Museums would still need to show engagement but instead of being forced into a narrow metric of voucher revenue (which will happen just as surely as teaching to the test happens in schools) they could look at more holistic measures.

	please explain. I am pretty sure we can prove it theoretically that vouchers are the best way to empower a child. it can make its own decision with fewer financial constraints. As for teaching for the test, it will die a prompt death (unless parents interfere in learning).		please explain. I am pretty sure we can prove it theoretically that vouchers are the best way to empower a child. it can make its own decision with fewer financial constraints. As for teaching for the test, it will die a prompt death (unless parents interfere in learning).

	~~>>>~~"the principles of perfect competition (museums do not meet that perfection, but educational options do)." educational options (at least the formal ones) most certainly do not; their value is not definable at the time of consumption; this is why the cost of fee-based education has been rising so rapidly.		'''Reservation''': "the principles of perfect competition (museums do not meet that perfection, but educational options do)." educational options (at least the formal ones) most certainly do not; their value is not definable at the time of consumption; this is why the cost of fee-based education has been rising so rapidly.

	our proposition Lex Libertas does not include tools to define "formal" education. Specific certificates might arise if there was a demand. It is important that you stress "value at the time of consumption". As a democratic and self-directed advocate, you probably agreed when I say that the brain is optimized to make perfect choices for the moment, that's why they should be respected.		our proposition Lex Libertas does not include tools to define "formal" education. Specific certificates might arise if there was a demand. It is important that you stress "value at the time of consumption". As a democratic and self-directed advocate, you probably agreed when I say that the brain is optimized to make perfect choices for the moment, that's why they should be respected.
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	https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Pleasure_of_learning		https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Pleasure_of_learning

	~~>>>~~"The school will not have that option because the poor quality of service will immediately result in children quitting the school." no, there are many reasons why children may continue; for example, because they have bonded (at least in a surviving shared oppression way) with others and don't want to lose their friends.		'''Reservation''': "The school will not have that option because the poor quality of service will immediately result in children quitting the school." no, there are many reasons why children may continue; for example, because they have bonded (at least in a surviving shared oppression way) with others and don't want to lose their friends.

	yes. they can also be pushed by parents or may be bound by contract (as in the example of school that is built on demand). However, in evolution, an inferior species dies out. Poor educational choices will hurt schools and will make them bleed students. The worst the school, the faster the departure of kids, even with little time for bonding.		yes. they can also be pushed by parents or may be bound by contract (as in the example of school that is built on demand). However, in evolution, an inferior species dies out. Poor educational choices will hurt schools and will make them bleed students. The worst the school, the faster the departure of kids, even with little time for bonding.
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	you derive those observations from implementations where parents make decisions. not children. Public or private education does not differ on a "free educational market" because kids do not care about the ownership of a building or a school. Profiteering works in conditions of limited information (parents looking at school rankings) on a imperfectly competitive market (big schools against big schools). Those problem disappear when kids make decisions (they know instantly if they like the school or not) and when the number of competitive options is as rich as in Poland (School in the Cloud is free).		you derive those observations from implementations where parents make decisions. not children. Public or private education does not differ on a "free educational market" because kids do not care about the ownership of a building or a school. Profiteering works in conditions of limited information (parents looking at school rankings) on a imperfectly competitive market (big schools against big schools). Those problem disappear when kids make decisions (they know instantly if they like the school or not) and when the number of competitive options is as rich as in Poland (School in the Cloud is free).

	~~>>>~~I do not wish to get into an extended debate on them at this time.		'''Reservation''': I do not wish to get into an extended debate on them at this time.

	I agree. Let me then summarize then:		I agree. Let me then summarize then: